Humph ([info]spiralsheep) wrote,
@ 2008-04-08 12:32:00
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Current location:"the West"
Current mood:Appreciating art critically
Entry tags:anti-racism, art, asiana, europeana, insert sensible tags here

In which there is Orientalism and art
For [info]skywardprodigal.

European Orientalism is complex. Europe admires and desires this "Eastern" Other, Europe steals what it desires, some European artists transform this theft into art, but Europe still has an abusive love/hate relationship with the "Oriental" "objects" and people and cultures (plural: Japan =/= China =/= Korea, & etc.) subjected to this European cultural and personal desire. Notice that this paragraph is all about Europeans as the subject and "Orientals" as the objectified Other because Europeans have dominated the whole world. Note that Japanese, Chinese, Korean and the many East Asian and South East Asian people and cultures see themselves as the subject of their own lives and histories. Westerners are the Other to Asians but not in a mirror image of Western Orientalism because Asian cultures =/= an "Oriental", "Eastern", mirror image of the West (BTW, "the West", "Western", and "Westerners" are all self-identifiers used by the dominant European people for themselves and so aren't equivalent in impact to the terms, such as "Oriental", imposed on Asian people by Europeans).

Sometimes, of course, it's the love and the art which shine through.



By Georges Barbier, circa 1920s.

ETA: threeoranges claims the lady is supposed to be Turandot (see comments).


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[info]skywardprodigal
2008-04-08 12:01 pm UTC (link)
Thank you for the lesson and the picture.

*hugs*

She and the dragon remind me of Beauty and the Beast...she has a rose (or a peony) and appears fine. He looks monstrous but his expression isn't (at least to me).

Also, thank you for that distinction between the definitions of West v Oriental...how one is promoted about a group by members/representatives of a group and the other isn't embraced by separate people groups.

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[info]spiralsheep
2008-04-08 01:01 pm UTC (link)
The lesson wasn't for you. We've already done the advanced version of this. The picture was definirtely for you but I didn't want to post it without some commentary. :-)

It looks very much like a courting scene, yes. I wonder if she's earth and/or the material world, especially because of all her flowers, and the dragon is air and/or the spiritual world. I presume the blue sphere has a significance I'm missing. Perhaps it's another world like the Azure Heaven or something. ::goes to google::

Also, thank you for that distinction between the definitions of West v Oriental...how one is promoted about a group by members/representatives of a group and the other isn't embraced by separate people groups.

I tend to try to pre-empt people's more predictably irritating reactions because I find it easier to explain these basic ideas, which are painfully obvious to me, when I'm calm and before I reach the ragey stage when I just want to demand why person X can't see Y (or at least think about Y and google for it before they decide to argue with me). /self-defence

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[info]skywardprodigal
2008-04-08 01:05 pm UTC (link)
The lesson wasn't for you. We've already done the advanced version of this. The picture was definirtely for you but I didn't want to post it without some commentary. :-)

Well, thank you for the picture and the refresher lesson. :D

/self-defence

Understood. :D

For me, pre-emptive schooling is something I sometimes do. And other times, I refrain from, well, text.

I've been considering having a message board attached to the dailies for years now. But just when I'm serious about getting mods and using the board function placed there by [info]crantz for just that purpose...I find out some racist org's been linking to images there, and I'm like, "the pictures are all I've got to say about anything anyway."

Back to the art:

It looks very much like a courting scene, yes.

She may be acting coy. Or perhaps shy.

I wonder if she's earth and/or the material world, especially because of all her flowers, and the dragon is air and/or the spiritual world.

Oooh, nice. Or maybe she is peace and he war. She gardens and he the battlefield? Or maybe he's the sea?

I presume the blue sphere has a significance I'm missing.

Likewise. Because, okay, he's wrapped around a huge blue ball.

Perhaps it's another world like the Azure Heaven or something.

Maybe.

I'll put up some art in my lj when my connection is less weird. It's a neat take, or at least new to me, of Persephone and Hades.


Edited at 2008-04-08 01:09 pm UTC

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[info]spiralsheep
2008-04-08 02:07 pm UTC (link)
the pictures are all I've got to say about anything anyway

I hear you.

Or maybe she is peace and he war.

Ooo... I think that might be quite traditional for East Asian dragons but I wouldn't have made that connection because I'm too steeped in British dragon lore.

Your sea suggestion is good too because a cursory google, in English, suggests that the dragon ought to be associated with water and it's either bringing rain to the lady, who is probably supposed to be a personification of Spring (which would fit in with Barbier's penchant for depicting the seasons in female form) or carrying a dragon orb (I'll spend all day thinking about the Dragon Ball mamga now, heh).

These dragons are Japanese: temple dragon (with orb?) and sky dragon from a manuscript dated to 1244 (Gregorian calendar).

I'll put up some art in my lj when my connection is less weird. It's a neat take, or at least new to me, of Persephone and Hades.

I look forward to seeing it. :-)

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[info]skywardprodigal
2008-04-08 04:35 pm UTC (link)
Thank you for the dragon picture.

Here is Persephone & Hades.

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[info]spiralsheep
2008-04-08 10:25 pm UTC (link)
You're welcome and thank you for the art. :-)

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[info]skywardprodigal
2008-04-23 11:41 am UTC (link)
It's my pleasure to share.

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[info]electricwitch
2008-04-08 01:47 pm UTC (link)
Oh god, shut me up before I start. Two MA semesters of courses on 18th century and Romantic Orientalism = brain vomit waiting to happen.

If only someone would accept my proposal for a PhD on Orientalism in pop music.

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[info]spiralsheep
2008-04-08 02:10 pm UTC (link)
Feel free to start if you want to. You've reminded me that the first rly obvious and creepy example of Orientalism which I encountered was Turning Japanese by The Vapours. That song still creeps me out and not only for the lyrics, ew.

You should write that thesis. It deserves to exist.

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[info]electricwitch
2008-04-08 05:56 pm UTC (link)
I love that song because the music is so catchy :( I just tune out the lyrics because they're weird and creep me out.

It's such a good PhD subject but everyone here is like POP MUSIC? IN MY UNIVERSITY???!!!

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[info]skywardprodigal
2008-04-08 06:43 pm UTC (link)
What's 'here'?

To bad Cornell doesn't have an American Studies Graduate program.

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[info]spiralsheep
2008-04-08 10:35 pm UTC (link)
electricwitch is from the Netherlands but she did her MA in England.

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[info]skywardprodigal
2008-04-09 01:09 am UTC (link)
Thanks!

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[info]skywardprodigal
2008-04-08 02:26 pm UTC (link)
...UBC wouldn't let you do your own degree maybe?

That would be fantastic.

Like, I adore Bowie's 'China Girl' but I feel icky for loving it.

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[info]seebrirun
2008-04-08 03:19 pm UTC (link)
The ickiness of 'China Girl' is compounded by the icky promo, I think. In audio, the Girl in question's a fun-but-dodgy heroin metaphor, but on video, she's just fetishism.

I'm going to be kind and assume the video wasn't Bowie's idea, because a) I love the song as well, and b) the thought of 'suddenly straight' 80s Bowie laughing all the way to the bank makes me oddly happy. Subversive pop FTW!

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[info]electricwitch
2008-04-08 05:53 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, China Girl is so awful because it's *about* Orientalism and so it's supposed to use a lot of the fetishisation imagery, but then it uses that Orientalism and those images as well. So it's just creepy instead of thoughtful. It worked better when iggy Pop sang it anyway, cos it didn't have a video and also Iggy Pop has a diction better suited to make something seem critical.

I am actually writing an article about David Bowie for a collection of essays on heterosexuality, and in it I say that he uses the cultural appropriation and exoticism of the Let's Dance videos in the same way he uses his heterosexuality: to gain "authenticity".

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[info]skywardprodigal
2008-04-08 10:55 pm UTC (link)
It's failing like that song Irony, hunh?

I really don't like Bowie's version...But then I do!

Your article!!! I look forward to reading it (if possible). O.O

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[info]electricwitch
2008-04-09 07:00 pm UTC (link)
Well it's hopefully getting published so I guess I can't give it out for free, but er. TBH I'll probably post bits.

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[info]skywardprodigal
2008-05-02 01:33 am UTC (link)
I look forward to reading bits. :)

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[info]spiralsheep
2008-04-09 05:49 pm UTC (link)
u = teh smrt

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[info]electricwitch
2008-04-09 06:59 pm UTC (link)
lol this is why I am working in a mailroom tomorrow. \o/

anyway it's more INCREDIBLY OVERINVESTED IN GLAMROCK than smrts.

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[info]spiralsheep
2008-04-09 07:05 pm UTC (link)
Whether society values your intelligence is, as you know, a different measurement to how much intelligence you have. My circle of aquaintance skews towards the v v smrt and you're still notably smrter than most. /srs

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[info]seebrirun
2008-04-08 02:59 pm UTC (link)
That's really pretty. (I wonder why I'm conditioned to think of blue things as spiritual? I'm not Catholic or anything.)

According to my bookshelf:

'If a dragon has scales, he is called kiao-lung; if wings, ying-lung; if horned, k'iu-lung; if hornless, he is called ch'i lung.'

...And if he lives long enough, he'll grow (first) horns, then (after a thousand years) wings (which most Chinese dragons don't seem to have). I like knowing that. Also, he's not an Imperial dragon; they're always painted with five claws. ::is a font of nothing::

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[info]spiralsheep
2008-04-08 03:28 pm UTC (link)
I wonder why I'm conditioned to think of blue things as spiritual?

Blue sky = dualistic Heaven = spiritual ?

But Barbier's blue dragon might not be a reimagined long, it might be a ryo or a ryong.... ::knows almost nothing about East Asian dragons and/or art::

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[info]chronographia
2008-04-09 04:05 am UTC (link)
That was very well put, though I can't help feeling that if my history teachers had been half so articulate, we would have learned more material in class.

Mmmm, I love non-Western approaches to background/foreground and especially the textures used to delineate the two. We should steal culturally appropriate some more of that.

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[info]spiralsheep
2008-04-09 05:48 pm UTC (link)
I find it's easier to explain complicated ideas if one has the luxury of assuming the overwhelming percentage of the audience are capable of also thinking for themselves.

I know far more about Western Orientalist art than about the original sources it's based on. ::shame::

I believe the Barbier piece above is yarn art but I haven't had much luck googling it... which is a cunning segueway into the news that I found my mother's yarn stash. Only a comparatively small proportion of it is wool and that's mostly dull white "baby" wool (the labels are cute though) which you'd probably have to dye before use. There's more wool/mohair mix yarn but most of that also has a small, i.e. 15% or less, percentage of manmade fibres. My favourite yarn so far is the rich chocolate brown mohair with gold streaks which, when in balls, looks like fairy-elephant poo, heh.

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[info]chronographia
2008-04-11 05:13 am UTC (link)
I don't object much to the addition of moderate synthetic fibres (it's more the individual nature of the acrylic in question, which I again leave to your discretion), especially if they enrich the world by creating fairy-elephant poo! Hee.

Mohair . . . I am trying to remember what project I wanted to use some mohair in and I'm failing to think of it. Hm. Perhaps because my brain has been consumed by the need for HATTITUDE.

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[info]spiralsheep
2008-04-11 04:03 pm UTC (link)
I tend to assume that most experienced craftspeople give preference to the touch test on potential materials anyway, which is impossible at this distance. Some fibres feel good and work well and others turn me into a human static battery so I light up like the Statue of Liberty with the same hair-silhouette even without a tiara. All the yarn is light and will make good packing material so I'll send you a bundle and if you don't want it then I'm sure you can find it a good home.

I don't usually go for browns and golds but the fairy elephant poo is beautiful. I'd love to get a bath full and snuggle in.

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[info]kita0610
2008-04-23 05:10 am UTC (link)
I wish I had something deep and meaningful to say, but mostly I keep looking at the picture thinking, "wow. pretty."

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[info]spiralsheep
2008-04-23 10:09 am UTC (link)
"Wow, pretty" is a perfect reaction as far as I'm concerned because my reaction to Orientalist art is often "wow, skanky Orientalist issues" so it's always a relief to be reminded by art, such as that Barbier picture, that there is Western art inspired by Asian cultures which I'd actually want to hang on my wall so, yes, "Wow, pretty", followed by a sigh of relief. :-)

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[info]kita0610
2008-04-23 10:12 am UTC (link)
Ha! Excellent, I'm glad.

It really does remind me of a Beauty and the Beast type thing. Something about it is romantic, in a weird way. And the colors are stunning.

So yea. Pretty. :)

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[info]spiralsheep
2008-04-24 01:19 pm UTC (link)
t really does remind me of a Beauty and the Beast type thing. Something about it is romantic, in a weird way. And the colors are stunning.

::nods complete agreement::

It's also interpretable as amusingly Freudian with the lady offering her, ahem, "flower" to the dragon for him to wet with an oncoming "shower". ;-)

::is not a Freudian but is amused by pretending everything is about sex::

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[info]kita0610
2008-04-24 08:24 pm UTC (link)
I'm fairly certain that everything being about sex was the only thing Freud actually got right...

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[info]threeoranges
2008-05-06 02:11 pm UTC (link)
I almost hate to bring this up, but that picture is Georges Barbier's TURANDOT.

The story of Princess Turandot - which was first popularized in the Ventian playwright Carlo Gozzi's play of 1761 - has the message of "Orientalism = beauty, strangeness, The Other, mystery, exoticism, cruelty" in spades. A beautiful princess responds to her suitors by setting them three riddles, with the penalty of decapitation if they don't succeed. And if you've seen/heard the Puccini opera of the same story, that "Orientalism" factor's ramped up about 1000x.

If you have a larger picture of this image, take a good look at her eyes - their "alienness" is shown by the white irises surrounded by black. It's a thoroughly beautiful image, until you look closer...

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[info]spiralsheep
2008-05-06 02:28 pm UTC (link)
I'm glad you brought it up because I've been trying to find out more about that image for ages. :-)

I only know the opera of Turandot and, yes, it's Orientalism on an operatic scale although some of the themes are identical to European folklore.

I don't have a larger version of that image but now you've told me what it is I can google for it. I shall look forward to it.

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[info]spiralsheep
2008-05-06 02:50 pm UTC (link)
Alas, google isn't finding this image, or any other Barbier image, as Turandot (nor a larger version).

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[info]threeoranges
2008-05-06 08:30 pm UTC (link)
Yes, I Googled for it and could find nothing with its proper title (just "Lady & Dragon"). I was going to recommend you invested in the Dover "Illustrations of Georges Barbier in Full Colour", which has a lovely full-size picture of her, but having seen that it's out-of-print and only available for a whopping $50, I'll recommend you look for it in your local library instead.

I have a copy - but it's miles away at my parents' place, so I can't scan it as proof. But trust me, she IS Turandot and practically Orientalism personified.

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[info]spiralsheep
2008-05-06 10:03 pm UTC (link)
I'm not especially keen on Barbier's work so I'll probably skip the trip to the British Library to look at a copy (although I'd love to know what medium/media Barbier used). I picked that picture to illustrate this post for several reasons, none of which were to do with the artist, heh. Skywardprodigal and I have been having discussions, in pictures and words, about art and race for months. I seem to recall that we got onto Orientalism, and Barbier, via Gaugin.

According to t'interwebz, Schiller also wrote a Turandot in which she's a much more positive character than in Gozzi, Basoni, or Puccini's work (although Schiller's work is reputedly still Orientalist).

I'm now wondering whether the small version of the image, with less detail in the reproduction, can be critiqued as "Lady & Dragon" seperately from the larger version and/or the title attached to it and in what circumstances that would be a valid approach, hmm. ::ponders::

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[info]threeoranges
2008-05-06 11:05 pm UTC (link)
I can't remember the medium - and yeah, don't make a *special trip* to the BL just for it, but if you do find yourself there, why not summon that book from the stacks? It would confirm what I said about the eyes. (I must say, I refuse to believe that Barbier, after having created an image of both beauty and cruelty, would have allowed people to have resized it and retitled it to something anodyne like "Lady & Dragon". Maybe someone DID do it, but if they did that would be like taking a portrait of Lucrezia Borgia and retitling it "Italian Noblewoman". Barbier's TURANDOT gains quite a bit of power once you know who she is, what she does and the fact that the pretty-looking girl is more of a killer than the dragon behind her.)

I claim to be a fan of Gozzi, but I haven't taken the plunge and read Schiller's version of TURANDOT yet. I have enough German to do so, so the delay's due to sheer laziness and the secret fear it'll be highly intellectual and dry-as-dust.

That said, Gozzi's Princess Turandot is pretty "sympathetic" - in her first scene she presents herself as the prisoner of a foolish vow she wishes she'd never made, and earnestly begs the prince to leave before the wheels of the execution machine grind into motion once again. Busoni sticks pretty closely to Gozzi so it's only really Puccini's version which ramps up the cruelty, and even then she uses the story of a raped ancestor as justification for her riddle-game. But nonetheless, in all of these versions, "Orientalism" is embarrassingly present in the depiction of China as quaint/barbaric.

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[info]spiralsheep
2008-05-07 03:49 pm UTC (link)
I refuse to believe that Barbier, after having created an image of both beauty and cruelty, would have allowed people to have resized it and retitled it to something anodyne like "Lady & Dragon".

Artists often disaprove of fannish behaviour although they usually don't seem to mind tiny illustrations in exhibition catalogues and art history books. And "dragon" is hardly an anodyne word, however much the cutesier end of fantasy fiction tries to make it so. :-)

if they did that would be like taking a portrait of Lucrezia Borgia and retitling it "Italian Noblewoman".

Stranger things have happened:

http://spiralsheep.livejournal.com/8148.html?mode=reply

Barbier's TURANDOT gains quite a bit of power once you know who she is, what she does and the fact that the pretty-looking girl is more of a killer than the dragon behind her.

Hmm, I think I generally disapprove of non-conceptual visual art which relies on additional words, such as titles, to dramatically alter the perception of the work. There are exceptions (e.g. parody, satire, homages etc.) but, to me at the moment, this isn't one of them. Also, Chinese dragons aren't particularly killy and knowing the lady is supposed to be Turandot makes the dragon much less scary than if she was, for example, Cleodolinda.

If you want to add to your queue of German books to read then I'm always recommending the letters and diaries of Paula Modersohn-Becker. /unasked for recs

Gozzi's Princess Turandot is pretty "sympathetic" - in her first scene she presents herself as the prisoner of a foolish vow she wishes she'd never made, and earnestly begs the prince to leave before the wheels of the execution machine grind into motion once again.

Character folly is often the main plot motivation in commedia dell'arte (and fairy tales) so that seems in keeping with the probable inspirations of the story. ::nods::

in all of these versions, "Orientalism" is embarrassingly present in the depiction of China as quaint/barbaric.

I also love (NOT) the frequent attempts by opera fans to explain the Orientalism away by citing the Boxer Rebellion as proof that the Chinese were exceptionally barbaric (a particularly ironic greek-origin word for the people of the middle kingdom) without, apparently, noticing the existence and scale of similar events in Europe. ::eyeroll::

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TL; DR ensues (pt I)
[info]threeoranges
2008-05-08 05:40 am UTC (link)
Artists often disapprove of fannish behaviour although they usually don't seem to mind tiny illustrations in exhibition catalogues and art history books.

True, but an exhibition implies a chance to see the real thing, so it's an aide-memoire rather than the only information available. As for the art history book, had I been the artist of an image designed to show a beautiful yet cruel woman, I would consider it misrepresentation for the image to be relabelled as well as resized.

And "dragon" is hardly an anodyne word, however much the cutesier end of fantasy fiction tries to make it so. :-)

True, but as you point out below, a thorough knowledge of Chinese culture would interpret the dragon as elemental force/national emblem rather than as an image of destruction. It's my belief that Barbier probably wasn't working in a well-informed tradition, however, and that when he drew the dragon he may well have meant it to have negative connotations (as per Western tradition). Call the resized image "Lady & Dragon" and it's possible for a culturally-sensitive modern viewer to see her as an entirely benign image of Chinese femininity standing against her national symbol. Call her "Turandot", and that benignity isn't such a given. I'm of the opinion that the artist's wishes do matter, and that if one is going to reproduce the image in a resized form one should at least give it its original title.

Stranger things have happened:

HAHAHAHAHA. Thanks for that! But my point remains that such images were at least labelled "Jesus Christ", and thus the possibility of their being *modelled* on a less-than-Christlike rl figure is more an interesting detail than a necessary point of interpretation. A.N. Wilson has pointed out that Holman Hunt painted THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD from a female model in a beard, but that additional information doesn't mean that "drag king" is the only possible interpretation of the work.

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Re: TL; DR ensues (pt I)
[info]spiralsheep
2008-05-08 12:40 pm UTC (link)
Exhibition catalogues and art history books were merely two examples. There are many other artist-approved styles of reproduction which always involve loss of detail and sometimes also removal of words (and that's apart from the fact that most artists lose control of their work and its reproduction at the point when they sell the original): postcards, prints, posters, sale of image as stock art, &etc. Visual artists rarely retain control of their work, even during their lifetimes, in the way that writers do. Agents and exhibitors (like editors in the literary arts) sometimes suggest changes to titles and by "suggest" I mean "instruct". Also, what about pictures which have multiple titles, can I choose the one I prefer or must I use them all, even the ones the artist later rejected? I put it to you that there are too many possible variables for simple generalisations to be applicable. :-)

I would consider it misrepresentation for the image to be relabelled as well as resized.

But is "Lady & Dragon" re-titling or merely loss of title and ensuing description? In this case we'll never know, although I suspect the second is more common than the first (especially on t'interwebz).

when he drew the dragon he may well have meant it to have negative connotations (as per Western tradition).

Yes, but which negative connotations? Is the dragon a physical representation of a characteristic of the lady or is the lady under threat from the lust/greed which dragons traditionally represent in "the West" and therefore reacting in self-defence? The connotations of the image could imply she is a "dragon-lady" or that the Serpent is attempting to enter her Eden and should have his head bruised with her heel (if you'll scuse me goin all biblical for a mo). Or maybe it's merely a pretty Orientalist picture which Barbier created and then called "Turandot" for marketing purposes cos I don't think any prior version of her story has a dragon in it. ;-P

I'm of the opinion that the artist's wishes do matter, and that if one is going to reproduce the image in a resized form one should at least give it its original title.

I, otoh, am of the opinion that intention never presents as forceful a case as action. If I publish an image to the world then I must accept that it will be seen out of its original context (lighting, display height, frame, textures and colours of surrounding decor, without its title, &etc). And I say that as someone intimately acquainted with the process of a visual work moving from the artist's studio and out into the wider world. Also, I frequently look at visual art and reproductions thereof in galleries and books without reading the title. What if the viewer is illiterate or foreign or has forgotten their glasses? What if the viewer has no idea who Turandot is or which version of her story is being referenced by that single word? What if they've only read an Angela Carter style reclaimed retelling? There are no guarantees that the audience will understand a reference in a title even if they are given it (which is never a given, heh ::pun::).

but that additional information doesn't mean that "drag king" is the only possible interpretation of the work.

Not "only", no, but "possible", yes. ::thinks of all the blokes with stuck on breasts in "Old Master" paintings:: And not only will some viewers insist on reinterpreting work according to the, always incomplete, information available to them but some viewers will also insist on interpreting the artist's personality and the artist's life through the partial lens of a partial grasp of that artist's work. ::shrugs::

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[info]threeoranges
2008-05-08 05:41 am UTC (link)
Hmm, I think I generally disapprove of non-conceptual visual art which relies on additional words, such as titles, to dramatically alter the perception of the work. There are exceptions (e.g. parody, satire, homages etc.) but, to me at the moment, this isn't one of them.

So, for fairness' sake, should every image in the art gallery remain untitled? It's an interesting notion, but I think the artist is entitled to shape the perception of the work in any way s/he wishes.

Also, in a world where nothing retains its title, the opportunities for portraying Turandot in the visual medium - and ensuring that she is recognized by the viewer - are drastically limited. In order to demonstrate that the woman is reponsible for a number of deaths, should she uniformly be portrayed against a wall of decapitated heads?

I'm far more taken with the concept Barbier presents here - a beautiful image that a reader can fall in love with, followed by the necessary reassessment ("Oh, I should have seen it in her eyes!") once the reader understands who she is and what she's done. In my opinion, it's a perfect illustration to the fable's message not to judge on beauty alone. Your mileage may vary, of course, but in my opinion art would be somewhat boring if evil were always represented as aesthetically repulsive.

As a final thought, if the image were not given its proper title there would be plenty of room for offence once the viewer registered those white-on-black eyes of hers. People might well get righteously annoyed at the idea of a Chinese woman being presented with strange, obviously "alien", eyes. ("Is this how you see the Chinese, Barbier?") Point out that the woman is not intended as a typical Chinese woman but as a monster of fable, and the potential for general racial offence is minimized.

Also, Chinese dragons aren't particularly killy and knowing the lady is supposed to be Turandot makes the dragon much less scary than if she was, for example, Cleodolinda.

*checks out Cleodolinda* Ah, that's what St George's maiden was called! Thanks! However, as I stated above, Barbier probably wasn't working with a great deal of knowledge of the Chinese culture. I could be wrong, but I'm guessing that chinoiserie had the greater influence on this work, and in chinoiserie dragons are often exotic, dangerous and potentially "killy". (Cf. the Brighton Pavilion.) Hence Barbier's conjunction of Turandot and a dragon may be more than mere "colour".

*checks out Paula Modersohn-Becker* Oh good, they've been translated into English! So many books, so little time :D Thanks!

I also love (NOT) the frequent attempts by opera fans to explain the Orientalism away by citing the Boxer Rebellion as proof that the Chinese were exceptionally barbaric (a particularly ironic greek-origin word for the people of the middle kingdom) without, apparently, noticing the existence and scale of similar events in Europe. ::eyeroll::

Very good point - and it's not like the British in China had done anything to deserve Chinese wrath, had they now? *sigh*

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[info]spiralsheep
2008-05-08 01:15 pm UTC (link)
So, for fairness' sake, should every image in the art gallery remain untitled?

Well, in my case they often do cos I don't read the titles and I'm not the only one (see also the 7th paragraph of my comment here). :-)

I think the artist is entitled to shape the perception of the work in any way s/he wishes.

I think artists are entitled to try to shape the perception of their work through, for example, titles but I don't think they're entitled to expect to succeed with every viewer or, at least, such an expectation would be unrealistic.

in a world where nothing retains its title, the opportunities for portraying Turandot in the visual medium - and ensuring that she is recognized by the viewer - are drastically limited.

Yes, it's an interesting conundrum. Artists can use standard iconography, as for Catholic Saints, but even that doesn't ensure recognition by those viewers unfamiliar with the iconography. Artists have attempted to convey human characteristics through a variety of visual means, both literal and symbolic. Does it matter if the viewer knows image X was intended by the artist to be character Y as long as the image usually successfully conveys characteristc Z? I suppose it depends on whether the artist is only depicting an individual Turandot or whether s/he intends to depict a wider insight into the human condition.

I'm far more taken with the concept Barbier presents here - a beautiful image that a reader can fall in love with, followed by the necessary reassessment ("Oh, I should have seen it in her eyes!") once the reader understands who she is and what she's done.

Hmm, that's a possible reassessment not "the necessary reassessment". I think viewers are less predictable than you appear to be suggesting. I also remain to be convinced that interpretation of Barbier's image was a fact (see also the 9th paragraph of my comment here about back-interpretation of artist's personalities and motivations from limited information).

Point out that the woman is not intended as a typical Chinese woman but as a monster of fable, and the potential for general racial offence is minimized.

I disagree. A racial stereotype doesn't cease being a stereotype because it's given a proper name. All sterotypes consist of a multitude of individual representations which feed into and reinforce common stereotypes. Exactly as the image wouldn't cease being Orientalist if it was titled Brunhilde.

My personal favourite dragon is the English folkloric version which can be assassinated with baked goods. ;-)


Edited at 2008-05-08 01:17 pm UTC

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